Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 1 CONSUMER ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSIONS 445 12th Street, S.W., Room TW-C305, Washington DC Friday, April 7, 2006 Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 2 1 WELCOME AND CALL TO ORDER - Shirley Rooker 2 Ms. Rooker: I'm Shirley Rooker. I'm the 3 Director of WTOB's radio Call for Action and the 4 President's Call for Action. We're going to save 5 the introductions. We already went around the room 6 real fast for introductions. Before we do that, 7 we're glad to have Commissioner Michael Copps with 8 us this morning. And since he is here and eager to 9 speak with us, we're going to turn the program over 10 to him at this moment and then we will do other 11 business and intro's after that. 12 So Commissioner Copps, thank you so much. 13 Please join me in welcoming him. 14 [Applause] 15 STATEMENT OF FCC COMMISSIONER MICHAEL J. COPPS 16 Commissioner Copps: Thank you very much. I 17 wanted to come down and apologize for the fact that 18 I couldn't make the last couple of sessions that 19 were held because I was out of town. But I really 20 wanted to come and thank you all for a number of 21 reasons. Number one, just like I thank all the 22 advisory committees, it's just a thank you for the 23 time, and energy, and dedication, and hard work you 24 put into this effort. I'm a great believer in 25 public/private sector partnerships and this kind of Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 3 1 advisory panel. 2 When I was at the Department of Commerce in 3 the Clinton Administration, I had responsibility 4 for overseeing I think, 16 or 17 of our industry 5 sector advisory committees and policy committees 6 and all, where the private sector came in and 7 really did this same sort of thing you're doing 8 here and it was invaluable to have that kind of 9 advice when we were negotiating treaties or doing 10 things like that. And I often stop to think, what 11 if we were doing this just alone without any input 12 from those folks who are out there in the real 13 world? It would have been tough going. 14 But I'm particularly anxious to come down here 15 and thank you, because I think this has been really 16 a stellar performance by this committee. It's a 17 good and activist committee. It's tackled really 18 not only difficult, but depressing and immediate 19 problems that we, as a country need to be facing 20 right now. So, I'm happy for that. 21 I've always told committees, set your own 22 agenda. Use the Commission staff to help you, but 23 you set the agenda, you set the priorities, you set 24 the direction, and you go the road you want to go. 25 And this committee has really done that and that is Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 4 1 I think, how you can really make a wonderful 2 contribution to the Federal Communications 3 Commission, and to the public, and to public 4 policy, and serving the public interest. I think 5 the issues that you have tackled are really 6 critically important. 7 As you know, I've been involved in several of 8 them since coming here since 2001, whether it's the 9 media ownership you're going to be talking about 10 today. I don't think there's a more important 11 problem that faces the United States right now. I 12 often tell people that media ownership isn't your 13 number one concern and your number one issue. It 14 ought to be your number two concern or issue, 15 because your number one issue is going to be 16 filtered through that lense of the media, and you 17 ought to be interested in that, and I'm glad that 18 you are interested in that, and we will be 19 addressing that as a Commission at the Chairman's 20 discretion. 21 But I presume fairly soon, as we revisit the 22 media ownership rules that unwisely went through 23 displacing 2003, and finally receive their just 24 desserts and were sent back to the Federal 25 Communications Commission. From my standpoint, it Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 5 1 was kind of a check status. It was good news that 2 those rules didn't go into effect. But now, we're 3 right back where we were before and we have to have 4 the same kind of input from the American people - 5 from you. So I look forward to your consideration 6 of that issue today and your actions today. 7 Ditto on the public interest obligations of 8 the DTV transition where you already have sent some 9 recommendations to us. I was thrilled when that 10 happened because I've been saying for months, this 11 Commission has done it for years really. This 12 Commission has done a pretty good job from the 13 standpoint of dealing with the mechanics of the DTV 14 transition whether it's digital, tuners, or we even 15 tried to do something in the broadcast lag until 16 the courts told us to get out of the way on that 17 one. That it was none of our business. But I 18 think under Chairman Powell, we did a good job in 19 trying to get commitments from the broadcasters and 20 everybody carrying high definition. 21 But that one whole gigantic area -- what's in 22 this for the American people, what's in it for 23 consumers? We just ignore it. And those 24 recommendations have been around here for years, 25 and years, and years. And we finally got the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 6 1 children's TV one up last year and got that through 2 here. And that was a good proceeding and a lot of 3 you folks helped on that. But that's only the tip 4 of it. There are lots of other recommendations 5 that were made and before we make this transition, 6 this is our chance and this may be our only chance 7 to really address this issue of what is in it the 8 public interest? And not only the American 9 consumer's need to know what the rules of the road 10 are, industry does too. So I think you do us all a 11 big favor on that. And I don't want to filibuster 12 here, but I'm so happy to see you go off and you're 13 going to have a report from your Rural Task Force 14 today. 15 We went down with Chairman Martin to Keller, 16 Texas last month and had our full Commission 17 meeting down there and he wanted us to go see some 18 of this IPT technology that's been developed by 19 Verizon and AT&T, and it's wonderful stuff and 20 we're all going to welcome having new competition 21 for the media, but you really -- you kind of wonder 22 when you leave there. You see all of this 23 wonderful technology and this very bandwidth 24 intensive, and you know high tech communities like 25 Keller, Texas are going to have that, and Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 7 1 Washington, DC's going to have that, and Chicago's 2 going to have that. How are we going to get that 3 out to rural America? And I really think -- and 4 it's not just IPT we're talking about, but it's 5 bandwidth and having access to advanced 6 technologies, and the tools of economic 7 opportunity, and the tools of education in the 21st 8 century. We could end up in the 21st century, with 9 a larger rural/urban split, a larger digital gap in 10 this age of advanced technology. 11 I think then, we head back to the base of 12 plain old telephone service and incipient broadband 13 in the 20th century. We're not talking about that 14 too much now, but we ought to be talking about it. 15 And Glen, again, I'm so glad to see you 16 talking about that. It is curious to me, we all 17 understand we live in such hugely transformative 18 times, all these technologies are migrating to new 19 tools and new services, and we're spending so much 20 time just debating whether the basic protections 21 that people fought so hard for in the 20th century, 22 whether it's consumer protections or privacy, or 23 universal service, or what have you, are going to 24 accompany this migration of technology and I would 25 hope we could get some kind of national consensus Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 8 1 on that before long. 2 But anyhow, I'll get off my soapbox. I came 3 down to say, thank you for being an activist 4 committee, for being a productive committee. 5 You're really serving the public interest and I'm 6 grateful for it. 7 Ms. Rooker: You will take a couple of 8 questions. Does anyone have questions? 9 Commissioner Copps: As long as their 10 softballs. 11 [Laughter] 12 Ms. Rooker: Does anybody have any questions 13 or comments? 14 Commissioner Copps: Another area I wanted to 15 mention, if I could just take a second, is the work 16 on disabilities. And the first speech I gave as a 17 member of this Commission was to the Deaf and Hard 18 of Hearing community out in Sioux Falls, South 19 Dakota. It's so important. I remember having 20 dinner with those folks the night before my speech 21 and I said, what's the unemployment rate amongst 22 this community? And they said, well it's like 75 23 or 80 percent. And I just kind of sat there in 24 shock, because here you had these people with all 25 this tremendous ability wanting nothing more than Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 9 1 to be productive citizens. We're getting the tools 2 now that can help make them that. We've got to 3 find a way to integrate them into that process and 4 make those tools available to them. So that's 5 another thing I'm really happy you all are 6 interested in. 7 Ms. Rooker: Well thank you so much. And we 8 do have a question. Gene? 9 Mr. Crick: One thing that we recognize -- all 10 of us here, is it's very difficult to address these 11 issues with the limited time as volunteers that we 12 have. Do you have any suggestions of this 13 committee or any of the working groups? And it's 14 not just as softball as it may seem. And it would 15 be something like, how do you manage to do such 16 wonderful work? 17 [Laughter] 18 Mr. Crick: Our question is, how could we more 19 effectively make our contributions to FCC policy 20 and say the real level of that is, how can we be 21 effective and in the sense of being influential? 22 We're going to your first question, how do we do 23 such a wonderful job? 24 [Laughter] 25 Commissioner Copps: I think some of the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 10 1 things I talked about at the beginning and tried to 2 have something like this. You have to have 3 necessarily, a wide agenda I guess, but you also 4 have to have a sense of priorities and a sense of 5 what it is that you hope to achieve in the limited 6 lifetime that these things are chartered for. And 7 so I think, get control of your own committee, set 8 your own priorities, use the FCC staff as your 9 tool, and keep them on tap with that. And then I 10 think, put the end prioritized recommendations to 11 the committee, not 9,000 recommendations on each 12 subject, but really trying to get to the nitty 13 gritty so that they're highlighted and they make an 14 impression. And I guess all of this with some kind 15 of a public relation strategy when you come forward 16 with these things get out on the news, get up on 17 Capitol Hill, let people know you're working out on 18 these. Those are some of the things that would 19 occur to me off the top of my head. 20 Mr. Crick: I am far that, that it's 21 appropriate that if we do make public our 22 recommendations, that is actual, I mean, I don't 23 want that to be loaded question, I'm just simply 24 saying, that I don't know. 25 Commissioner Copps: I think that's right. I Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 11 1 would defer to your designated Federal Officers and 2 any legal problems that are involved in that or 3 confidentiality. I shouldn't probably opine on 4 that. But, that this is not -- this should not be 5 classified information. This is not, some of the 6 industry sector advisory committees I had at 7 Commerce, you had to get a security clearance and 8 you were dealing with secret stuff and necessarily 9 so, and that was fine or business propriety stuff 10 like, but you don't just broadcast far and wide. 11 But I think when you're dealing with important 12 public policy questions that affect each and every 13 American, because there are stakeholders in owning 14 the public airways, that there's probably more than 15 adequate ways to have strategies that would get 16 that information into the public domain where it 17 belongs so that they can help. We don't always 18 help to make the right decisions. They could help 19 us make the right decisions. 20 It was just pointed out to me that the 21 recommendations are on the website. 22 Ms. Rooker: Well thank you so much, for 23 taking the time to come and join us this morning 24 and for your nice comments. Thank you. 25 [Applause] Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 12 1 Ms. Rooker: We've also been joined by 2 Commissioner Adelstein and we're going to let him 3 go next on the agenda, if that's okay. 4 STATEMENT OF FCC COMMISSIONER JONATHAN S. ADELSTEIN 5 Commissioner Adelstein: Good morning 6 everybody. Thank you so much for having me. It's 7 really a pleasure to be here. I know that our CGB 8 does such a great job of bringing you all together. 9 Monica Desai and Shirley Rooker made time for me on 10 the agenda and for Commissioner Copps, and we 11 appreciate that. It's nice to see so many friendly 12 faces this morning, and it's good just to have you 13 here and to have your input. 14 I've got to say, that we are inundated here by 15 an awful lot of lobbyists representing special 16 interests. Some of the most powerful corporations 17 in America, with some of the best and most 18 effective lobbyist you could possibly imagine, the 19 highest paid, the one's that have been here at the 20 highest levels or in Congress and it is just 21 nonstop. And you're really the bull work against 22 just being inundated by that and making sure that 23 we represent the people that we're really here to 24 represent under the law, the public, the consumers. 25 So we need your input. Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 13 1 We appreciate your being aggressive and really 2 taking advantage of this opportunity. The CBG and 3 the Chairman have been so gracious in providing you 4 to come together, to make sure that we hear from 5 you, because it is so critical to us. I take what 6 you say with a great deal of seriousness and 7 respect because of where you come from, because I 8 know that you represent the people that I 9 represent. You represent consumers, not the 10 companies that seek to profit by taking advantage 11 of regulations or somehow moving us around in ways 12 that benefit them. I don't blame them for doing 13 that. That's their job. They're good at it. 14 But our job is to wade through all that and 15 try to get to what the bottom line effect is on the 16 American people and you're the ones who can help us 17 to wade through that and you've done that. You've 18 made some recommendations here and I want to get 19 into some of those in a minute. 20 At your November meeting, I understand some 21 very important recommendations and I appreciate the 22 hard work that you did on those in both VRS and on 23 the consumer interest obligations for broadcasters. 24 I also understand that you will consider some 25 additional recommendations from the TRS Working Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 14 1 Group and I look forward to hearing your findings 2 on those. 3 You know as well as anybody in this country 4 about how we need to implement the Americans with 5 Disabilities Act and its vision. You have 6 expertise on that, that we need to hear from. And 7 I'm also pleased that the Advanced Technologies 8 Working Group is going to be offering a 9 recommendation to clarify our closed captioning 10 rules for DTV services. 11 When it comes to DTV transition, I think we 12 can't leave anyone behind. I know Janice Schacter 13 has spent some time yesterday, talking to me about 14 her experience as a mother of a young girl with 15 some hearing impairment and how important it is 16 that this be done right. And I think we're going 17 to make sure that happens, but we need your input 18 to make sure we can do it right. 19 I wanted to get into some of your 20 recommendations just briefly on VRS and the 21 consumer interest obligations of broadcasters. I 22 know that VRS interoperability issue is something 23 that is of great importance to all of us here. I 24 know that Monica Desai and our CGB have made 25 addressing this issue a priority. These systems Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 15 1 have to be interoperable. Everybody in this 2 country should be able to make calls. Whether they 3 have a disability or not, we understand the need 4 for emergency communications. It doesn't matter 5 whether you have a disability. Everybody has the 6 same need to have that access. Everybody has the 7 same right under the law to have that access and we 8 are going to make sure that that happens. We're 9 making this a priority and actively working on it. 10 So thank you for your input on that and you can see 11 how it makes a difference here because we're going 12 to be acting on that and it is thanks in part, to 13 your efforts. 14 On the DTV obligations, consumer interest, I 15 know at your last meeting in November, you made a 16 recommendation that was extremely helpful also to 17 us. I think that it was really timely, because 18 subsequently, Congress approved the DTV deadline 19 for February 2009 and as the consumers become more 20 aware of the transition and its cost to them, 21 they're going to ask what's in it for me and I 22 think it is important that we have a good response. 23 Here at the Commission, we spent a lot of time 24 making sure that broadcasters get the spectrum that 25 they need. They've been given $10's of billions of Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 16 1 dollars worth of free spectrum by Congress and 2 deservedly so, because they provide a wonderful 3 service. But what are we going to make sure that 4 we do to have the public benefit, as well as those 5 companies that are using that spectrum? What's the 6 measurable value to the consumer? In other words, 7 what specifically do we need to put on there as 8 they get additional capacity in response to the 9 digital transition to make sure that that 10 additional capacity comes with it? Commensurate 11 responsibilities for the public interest, because 12 after all, that's our sole interest under the law. 13 The public interest. 14 Now yesterday, I was at an unveiling of a 15 study that was very disturbing about video news 16 releases. You may or may not have noticed it. It 17 was in the press only marginally. But this public 18 interest group on behalf of the people, took the 19 effort to try to determine what was happening to 20 these video news releases. And it turned out, that 21 they found 98 instances where they were being 22 passed directly from a corporate propaganda source 23 to the American people via the public airwaves 24 without any disclosure apparently, about the source 25 of it. So it looks like a news story. It's about Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 17 1 an eczema cream. But guess who paid for it? The 2 pharmaceutical company that produces that cream, or 3 General Motors, or Daimler-Chrysler. No indication 4 to the public that these things are paid for by 5 corporate America. 6 Now there's nothing wrong with that, if they 7 want to substitute fake news for real news. If 8 they want to put on some phony thing that saves 9 them time from doing real local news, I guess that 10 is their right. But it's not their right under the 11 law, to not disclose to the public who's behind it. 12 Of course it's extremely embarrassing to disclose 13 to the public that rather than having real news, 14 they just took some clip from Daimler-Chrysler and 15 just threw it on. So maybe that's why their not 16 disclosing it. 17 But that is not what the [inaudible] asked 18 them to do and that is not what the public asked 19 them to do. So clearly, there's a role we have 20 here to make sure that this DTV transition benefits 21 the public and that we have a diversity of 22 viewpoints represented. 23 We promote civic participation. We expanded 24 local and community programming and increased 25 children's programming. So your recommendations Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 18 1 are something we take real seriously, again and 2 thank you so much for doing it. I think the 3 children's DTV compromise bodes well for the 4 Commission action on other challenging items like 5 this. We have enhanced disclosure requirements. 6 We need to act on them right away and get ready to 7 go. We need to get the public interest obligations 8 on all broadcasters, both radio and television, and 9 we have a local list in proceeding that has been 10 hanging out there for a while. We need to wrap 11 that up and we need your help on that. And now of 12 course, we have media ownership coming up, we have 13 the 3rd Circuit. It has remanded to us the 14 decision which was I think, unfortunate decision, 15 but we have an opportunity now to get it right. 16 And whatever we do, we'd better get it right 17 because the American people will care about what is 18 on their media and they need to be involved in the 19 process. 20 Again, the only standard I can tell in the law 21 as I read it, is the public interest and so it's 22 great that we hear from all the companies that are 23 affected by the regulations and that want to loosen 24 the ownership rules, and they have every right to 25 come here and to make their case as well as they Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 19 1 can. But ultimately, we have to weigh that against 2 what is in the public interest. Is their interest 3 aligned with the public, or is it different, or 4 where can we find a way that their needs are met so 5 that they can provide the service? But that 6 ultimately, our sole legal obligation to the public 7 interest is served and you are a critical part of 8 that. 9 We need to hear from you on that, whatever it 10 is you want to say, whether you think we need more 11 consolidation or less. It's just your viewpoint is 12 critical to us because you, in many ways, represent 13 the public and those are the issues that you have 14 before you today. And I really want to encourage 15 you to speak your mind, to let us know what you 16 think, to be open and vigorous in your advocacy and 17 in your recommendations, and I would invite all of 18 you, if you really want to come to my office and 19 say hi, I would love to. Janice did it yesterday 20 and feel free to come by, because we want to hear 21 from you. We hear from a lot of people, but not 22 always people representing your viewpoints. So 23 again, thank you for taking the time to participate 24 and make your contribution to this effort. Thanks 25 for having me. Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 20 1 Ms. Rooker: I think we're going to have some 2 questions. Just to remind people, put your hand up 3 and give the people in the control booth time to 4 get to you with your microphone. And we have a 5 question, is this okay? Commissioner Adelstein, do 6 you have time? 7 Commissioner Adelstein: Sure. 8 Mr. Conran: I really don't have a question. 9 I want to thank you, because I know you've made 10 yourself personally available to many of the public 11 members who, when we've come to your office to talk 12 about issues, rather than shuttling us off to staff 13 people. , I know you met with many of us on 14 occasions and I told you at the last meeting how 15 much I think it is appreciated by the public 16 members of this panel who are paying their own way 17 to come here and are not being subsidized. And you 18 have been, I think a good partner to this group. 19 You've made yourself very available, and it is very 20 appreciated, and I just wanted to express that 21 publicly. 22 Commissioner Adelstein: That's kind of you to 23 say that. 24 Ms. Rooker: And I can say, it's nice to hear 25 the affirmation of our work from you. So that is a Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 21 1 lovely thing. 2 Okay, Jim? 3 Mr. Tobias: Thank you very much Commissioner, 4 for coming and addressing that way. And listening 5 to you, I'm beginning to hear the sounds that 6 maybe, our long national nightmare of market 7 idolatry is coming to an end, and that the 8 Commission at least, might be one of the places 9 where some balance is restored between market 10 dynamics and needs of consumers of many types. 11 Specifically, and with reference to one of the 12 events -- Technology Working Group's 13 recommendations, the idea of having an ability to 14 plan for consumer issues, the specific 15 recommendation is to have a disability impact 16 statement for new technologies, products, services, 17 and features that will have an effect on 18 accessibility before they actually enter the 19 market. That is in the process of Commission 20 vetting or review. 21 I think it's a very interesting concept, but 22 it raises a larger picture for me and that is not 23 just with respect to accessability. But in every 24 way, so many of us, as consumer advocates, are in a 25 reactive mode and we needn't be. We should be able Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 22 1 to come together and well in advance of the 2 introduction of a new product or service, 3 understand and help guide the industry actually, in 4 targeting better and in providing consumer service 5 better by warning them essentially, this is going 6 to be a problematic area or this is a particularly 7 attractive proposal that will serve a market that 8 you may not be aware of. So both in the negative 9 and the positive to have a planning component, an 10 ability to get ahead of the market, and kind of do 11 some horizon scanning. And I'm wondering if either 12 currently or in any imagined real organization 13 within the Commission, that such a function might 14 be expanded? 15 Commissioner Adelstein: It is the idea. It's 16 something that you need to -- I think, give us your 17 thoughts on and after some more reflection -- I 18 mean, one of the issues is the nature of our 19 authority over equipment manufactures is somewhat 20 limited. We will work with them in terms of 21 licensing items and ensuring they don't create 22 harmful interference in the case of wireless items. 24 A lot of consumer products that are in this 25 field, we have very limited authority over. And we Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 23 1 have, for example, on the broadcast flag, we got 2 handed back to the court that we couldn't use a 3 broad public interest authority to try to protect 4 copyright holders and that has implications for how 5 much we can go in to. And that's an area where we 6 have some specific authority from Congress on the 7 DTV transition. 8 So more broadly, the question is, what can we 9 do and possibly ADA compliance be brought to bear? 10 I think it is something that needs a lot more 11 thought and this is good venue to try to think 12 through what we could do. Maybe instead of having 13 a requirements, we could work in some kind of 14 cooperative way with our friends in the Consumer 15 Governmental Affairs Bureau, to try to make sure 16 that these issues are thought up early in the 17 production process. That there's an opportunity 18 for input from the community that is affected - 19 Americans with disabilities -- into how these 20 products are manufactured, so that they're 21 compatible with various issues that people have and 22 so it might have to be a more informal process than 23 a formal one. But if you could help us think 24 through what we could do, both informally and 25 formally, in terms of what the limits are on our Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 24 1 authority with equipment manufactures. That would 2 be really helpful. 3 Ms. Rooker: One more question. Charles, put 4 your hand up so they'll find you. 5 Mr. Benton: Mr. Adelstein, thank you so much 6 for your most thoughtful and helpful comments to 7 us. I'm wondering, last month you gave a speech to 8 the Consumer Electronics Association, the Call to 9 Action speech, where you were pushing them to work 10 on consumer education in the face of the digital 11 transition. 12 Certainly, from the technology standpoint, 13 there needs to be consumer education. But also 14 perhaps, from the content standpoint as well. And 15 so for example, the children's rules that look as 16 though they're going to be approved now and there's 17 been an industry public interest collaborative 18 effort to work this through. I'm wondering if the 19 Call to Action could be enlarged with the Consumer 20 Electronics Association to talk, not just about the 21 technology, but about the content, and about the 22 public interest obligations, the things we talked 23 about earlier. I'm wondering if that might be 24 possible in using some of the federal money that 25 has been set aside for the education of consumers Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 25 1 about all of this to raise consciousness and the 2 opportunities for the more effective meeting of 3 consumer needs through the digital technology as 4 opposed to the analog technology. Perhaps your 5 comments about that, I would love to hear your 6 comments about that. 7 Commissioner Adelstein: Your observation 8 about the children's rules is sort of a model on 9 how we work together in cooperation with industries 10 that are affected. We've worked with the 11 broadcasters, we've worked with the networks, we 12 worked with consumer groups and we reached an 13 agreement that really was a reasonable one that 14 everybody could live with and ensure that children 15 had meaningful benefits out of the digital 16 transmission and that the urgent needs of the 17 broadcasters and the networks weren't basically 18 ignored in ways that would actually potentially 19 undercut the good product that children ultimately 20 would receive. So that was a wonderful cooperative 21 effort and to the degree we can do that, I think we 22 should. 23 The Call to Action specifically, was really 24 about real basics of making people aware that this 25 digital transmission is coming. Now that we have a Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 26 1 hard date, we have a whole different ball game. I 2 mean, it was tough to get all the different groups 3 together to communicate the single message when it 4 wasn't clear when the transition was going to end, 5 because they had different policy interests. Some 6 people wanted the transition later than others and 7 they really couldn't agree on a public message. 8 But on this one, we're really focused on kind of a 9 simple message, your TV is going to go dark in 2009 10 and here's some steps you can take to fix it. If 11 you want to buy a TV, think about going digital - 12 not analog, or here's the cost if you go analog. 13 If you can't afford a new TV or don't want to buy 14 one, you can get this box and the government is 15 providing a subsidy, and how do you educate people 16 about what their different options are, and how you 17 do that in a simple way. And frankly, that 18 particular effort is going to take a consensus 19 between consumer electronics, broadcast industry, 20 public interest groups, the government, both NTIA 21 and the FCC, and it is tough to broaden our two 22 issues that are contentious and divisive sometimes. 24 If we want to get that message across, because 25 we certainly don't want consumers to be surprised Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 27 1 to when they find their TV set in the kitchen going 2 dark because they were getting over the air on that 3 one. If a few million of things even go dark and 4 there's 90 million of these sets out there, we're 5 going to have some pretty angry folks. 6 And so, that's the message that we're -- right 7 now, really trying to, in a sensitive way, bring 8 together a consensus. And ideas include working 9 with CGB to get some outreach done, trying to get 10 at maybe a working group together of industry, 11 public interest advocates, and all the different 12 industry. Because there's a lot. There's 13 retailers, there's the manufacturers, there's the 14 broadcasters, there's the networks. I mean on and 15 on, there's a lot of different interest out there 16 on the corporate side and then there is the public 17 groups and the consumer reps. But everybody's 18 interest is the same on this one. That's the 19 beauty of it. 20 I think we could come up with a unified 21 message and when you talk to like advertising 22 professionals, they want to be simple, and clean, 23 and repeated a lot so that nobody gets surprised. 24 And that is kind of, I think, the goal of that one. 25 But I think there is a need for a broader effort to Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 28 1 work together, maybe not in the context, but in 2 another one to find out, how do we move forward on 3 what you call the consumer interest obligations of 4 broadcasters? And the more consensus we can reach 5 on that, I think it's in everybody's interest. I 6 think it is in the interest of broadcasters and 7 consumers that there be real benefits to the public 8 from this transition. 9 The question is, can we reach a consensus on 10 what those are or how you go about adding the 11 government role in ensuring that those benefits are 12 maximized for consumers? That is a little tougher 13 one. Because again, the policy differences might 14 make it more difficult to have a unified message 15 than they would on the consumer transition - the 16 basics of the transition. But, your thought is 17 well taken and I certainly appreciate your 18 leadership and the leadership of the whole group on 19 consumer interest obligations. 20 Ms. Rooker: Thank you, Commissioner. I'm 21 sorry, we are running late. I'm sorry. 22 Commissioner Adelstein: It's my fault. 23 Ms. Rooker: No. Thank you so much. 24 [Applause] 25 Ms. Rooker: I have a few housekeeping things Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 29 1 I have to do before we can move on to Monica. She 2 is with us and I hope she will forgive me. But I 3 do just need to tell you a couple of things. We 4 have some people who are joining us this morning. 5 Larry Goldberg and Steve Jacobs are joining us for 6 the new --- listen to this, new video conferencing 7 system which I think is partly made possible or 8 made possible by Steve Jacobs. So what you're 9 going to do, is you're not going to see gorgeous 10 pictures of us up on the screen, instead you're 11 going to see the closed captioning. I thought 12 because the two systems -- there's some problems 13 with transmitting. I don't know. Don't ask me. I 14 have no clue. We're working on it. They're 15 working on me, trying to make me understand. I 16 don't understand. 17 So I will put off my other housekeeping items 18 until we have had a chance for Monica Desai to join 19 us. Please join me in welcoming the Chief of the 20 Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau. 21 [Applause] 22 STATEMENT OF FCC COMMISSIONER MONICA DESAI, 23 CHIEF OF THE CONSUMER GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS BUREAU 24 Ms. Desai: Thank you all. It's so good to be 25 here with all of you again. And Shirley, thank you Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 30 1 so much for all you do for the committee. And 2 thank you, Scott also for just running this 3 committee so efficiently and so well. I know that 4 you all have been working very hard over the last 5 few months and the committee has never had so many 6 complex and challenging issues and recommendations 7 on a single meeting agenda. Congratulations on all 8 your good work in these various areas and I look 9 forward to receiving your recommendations. 10 CGB has been very busy since your last meeting 11 in November, so I would like to start off by 12 highlighting some of our recent efforts on the 13 consumer front, as well as report back to you 14 regarding the status of your recommendations. 15 As you know, the Commission's Disability 16 Rights office is housed within the Consumer and 17 Governmental Affairs Bureau and it's a high 18 priority for the Commission, that people with 19 disabilities get the same access to 20 telecommunications and video programming that 21 people without such disabilities take for granted. 22 I mentioned the last time that we met, that we 23 were working on establishing a video phone at the 24 Commission, a publicly available video phone. I'm 25 very glad to report, that now, we have this video Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 31 1 phone up and running. So if you would like to take 2 a look and use it, it's right outside the door. 3 Take a right up the steps and let me know. Let us 4 know what you think. 5 Last November, the committee addressed the 6 issue of blocking by certain video relay service 7 providers. I know that our Disability Rights 8 office staff found your comments to be very useful 9 and helpful in working on the proceeding. Chairman 10 Martin certainly has said publicly, that he 11 supports action on this issue. 12 And I'm sorry, I'm not able to provide a time 13 table for Commission action at this point, but I 14 know that it is something that all of the -- that 15 the Chairman and the Commissioner's are looking at 16 very closely, right now. 17 On November 30th, the Commission released a 18 Notice of Proposed Rule Making, seeking comment on 19 ways by which IP relay and video relay service 20 providers might automatically route emergency goals 21 to the appropriate public safety answering point. 22 The comment cycle on this issue has ended just 23 recently -- ended on March 8th. Because of the 24 importance of ensuring immediate access to 25 emergency services for all individuals, this is a Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 32 1 very critical issue we're working on. Just in 2 December, the Commission released an order creating 3 a Commission levels certification process for 4 common carriers to offer IP relay and video relay 5 service. This way, we hope this will stir 6 competition and increase consumer choice and 7 quality of service in those markets. 8 Our Bureau, as well as other Bureaus in the 9 Commission, are also working on other consumer 10 related rule making proceedings. The Commission, 11 through the Wire Line Bureau, recently opened a 12 proceeding to determine whether additional 13 restrictions may be necessary to protect the 14 confidentiality of customer proprietary -- certain 15 network information often referred to as CP&I. You 16 may be aware of this. This has been in the news a 17 bit. Comments in this proceeding are due next week 18 on April 14th and reply comments are due May 15th. 19 On April 5th, just two days ago, the 20 Commission adopted rules implementing the Junk Fax 21 Prevention Act of 2005. Specifically, the 22 Commission prettified an exemption to the fax rules 23 to allow fax advertisements to be sent to parties 24 within. The sender already has an established 25 business relationship. In addition, the item also Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 33 1 requires the sender of the fax advertisements to 2 provide clear and conspicuous notice and contact 3 information on the first page of a fax, which 4 allows recipients to opt-out of future fax 5 transmissions from this sender. You can pull this 6 up off the website. 7 We're also working on the issue of early 8 termination fees. As you all know, in 2005, the 9 Commission received two related petitions 10 concerning early termination fees imposed by 11 commercial mobile service -- commercial mobile 12 radio service providers on customers that terminate 13 their service prior to the expiration of a contract 14 term. In coordination with the Wireless Bureau, 15 CBG is reviewing the record and analyzing the 16 challenging issues facing the Commission. I know 17 this issue is part of one of your recommendations 18 on today's agenda, so it's very timely that you are 19 all providing us with your thoughts on this. 20 In November, you were just to take prompt 21 action on three dockets regarding the public 22 interest obligations of digital television 23 programmers. Although I can't give you a time 24 table at this point for Commission action, I know 25 that Shirley filed your recommendations in the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 34 1 appropriate dockets and sent copies to all the 2 Commissioners. So, thank you for doing that. 3 Regarding the responsibilities of digital 4 television broadcasters however, the Commission 5 recently sought comment on the second Further 6 Notice of Proposed Rule Making, addressing the 7 joint industry advocate proposal, regarding 8 previously adopted requirements of television 9 licensee's to provide educational programming for 10 children. 11 I would also like to address an issue which 12 was raised during your November meeting. You asked 13 us to explain the role of public comments in the 14 Commission's policy making process. Comments from 15 the public are very critical to the process. 16 However, the policy making process is not driven 17 solely by the number of comments on a particular 18 issue and we're well aware that some interested and 19 effected customers may not by comfortable filing 20 comments with us. So although we constantly strive 21 to make the comment process easy and consumer 22 friendly, who for example, our ECFS Express System. 23 I want to make sure you understand that we do value 24 all the comments that we receive. We also pay very 25 close attention to comments from advocacy Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 35 1 organizations which we know represent the views of 2 many individual consumers. 3 As you know, CGB also has an important 4 outreach function. We conduct our outreach 5 primarily through our Consumer Affairs and Outreach 6 Division which focuses on broad issue oriented, as 7 well as constituents, specific consumer education, 8 and also through our office of Intergovernmental 9 Affairs which is committed to strengthening the 10 relationship with state, local, and tribal 11 governments. We collaborate on a variety of issues 12 including homeland security, broadband advance 13 services, deployment, and wireless spectrum 14 options. Since November, our outreach team has 15 continued to participate in outreach activities, 16 designed to educate and inform consumers in making 17 important choices about telecommunications and 18 broadcast services. 19 Most recently, we attended the Consumer 20 Electronics show in Las Vegas, focusing on the 21 digital television transition, and the Delta 22 regional authority information technology, and 23 policy planning conference in Jackson, Mississippi 24 where we focused on broadband deployment. 25 In February alone, we attended three major Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 36 1 tribal conferences including the United South and 2 Eastern Tribes Impact, the Affiliated Tribes of 3 Northwest Indians with Recession, and the National 4 Congress of American Indians winter session. We 5 also just conducted a meeting of our 6 Intergovernmental Advisory Committee. 7 We're also focused on outreach through the 8 web. Since its inception last May, we've had 9 approximately 5,100 subscribers to our Consumer 10 Information Registry. The registry, as many of you 11 are familiar with, allows the delivery of consumer 12 information on whatever topics an individual 13 chooses. As the agency continues to inform the 14 public about important topics such as the digital 15 transition and VOIP/911, the registry will be a 16 good tool in getting consumers information 17 effectively and efficiently. So to the extent you 18 have topics, that you think would be useful for us 19 to send updates on and would like us to send out 20 emails on, please let us know. 21 I know that you recommended that we update our 22 Consumer Education Website, particularly on DTV, 23 www.dtv.gov and so I'm pleased to report that the 24 latest version of this website went live just about 25 a week ago. And as you recommended, we have Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 37 1 included in the news section of the page, 2 information concerning the obligations of digital 3 broadcasters to provide closed captioning. 4 In addition, to get children involved, we have 5 created a DTV Deputy program, where a certificate 6 is issued online to those who successfully complete 7 a DTV quiz. We hope to reach parents with DTV 8 information through their children. We plan to 9 also work with educators in bringing the DTV Deputy 10 program to the classroom on the website. 11 We've also created a Consumer Corner with 12 frequently asked questions about DTV information 13 about what programming is available on DTV and 14 glossary of digital television terms. We've made 15 the Commission's DTV Consumer Education 16 publications easier to access by posting them on 17 the dtv.gov website. In addition, we're now in the 18 process of developing the trainer's material and an 19 outreach toolkit to help government agencies and 20 community organizations run DTV awareness programs 21 locally and provide DTV information to those 22 seeking information and services from community 23 organizations. 24 So to the extent you have suggestions for the 25 toolkit, please let us know or keep an eye out on Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 38 1 the website, once it goes live. And if you see 2 things we should be adding to make it easier to 3 reach organizations, to make the information more 4 useful to organizations, please let us know. 5 As you know, updating the site is a continual 6 process and so our goal is to stay current with the 7 latest technology and information. Again, I invite 8 you to take a look at the new rollout. We're also 9 excited to be partnering with a NARUC on two 10 important outreach initiatives, involving life line 11 linkup, and subscribership, and consumer education, 12 and enforcement of the FCC's VOIP/911 requirements. 13 As you know, that Lifeline Across America 14 initiative was launched at the NARUC summer meeting 15 and on February 7th, the Working Group launched 16 www.lifeline.gov. 17 A website on lifeline linkupthat aggregates 18 important information for consumers with a special 19 section for hurricane victims, consumer advocates, 20 industry, government, and media. 21 As you know, the CGB has a complaints and 22 inquiry function as well. I think several of you 23 took a tour of our Consumer Center yesterday. We 24 are responsible for the Commission's direct 25 relationship with consumers through our Consumer Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 39 1 Center. So I want to highlight some of the 2 Center's work during 2005. 3 The Consumer Center fielded in 2005 over three 4 quarters of a million phone calls, twice that many 5 emails, also faxes, mail and web contacts for a 6 total of 2.4 million consumer contacts. One of the 7 most important rules our Consumer Advocacy and 8 Mediation Specialists -- those are the folks who 9 work in the Consumer Center or CAMS as they're 10 sometimes called, is in resolving disputes between 11 consumers and carriers. And through their hard 12 work, in 2005, over $4 million dollars were 13 returned to consumers by the carriers. 14 Currently, we are in the process of developing 15 a revised operating system that will enable our 16 Consumer Center staff to have more readily 17 available information to assist them in responding 18 to inquiries and complaints. And that should be 19 rolling out very soon, within the next month or 20 two. And as many of you know, you can access the 21 full complaint and inquiry report on the Bureau's 22 website at www.fcc.gov/cgb. 23 Well I know we're running overtime, but I 24 appreciate having had the opportunity to highlight 25 the Bureau's and some of the Commission's recent Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 40 1 activities and the opportunity to give you some 2 feedback on the issues you raised in November. I 3 look forward to continuing to work with you as we 4 implement the Commission's strategic goals. 5 So, thank you. Thank you very much, again. 6 [Applause] 7 Ms. Rooker: Monica has agreed to take a few 8 questions from us. We're running late because I 9 got us started five minutes late today. I'm going 10 to have to be beaten with a whip. 11 [Laughter] 12 Ms. Rooker: That never happens. Debra? And 13 by the way, when you're going to ask a question, 14 please state your name first for the record, so we 15 know who's doing what. Thank you. 16 Ms. Berlyn: Good morning. Debra Berlyn from 17 AARP. Monica, I was just wondering, if now that 18 you've worked on the website for DTV transition, if 19 you've also tried to get links that lots of other 20 organizations that have good access to consumers, 21 can provide a link to your website with the effort 22 that we need to make over the next couple of years 23 towards the transition in getting education efforts 24 out there? 25 Ms. Desai: I know that we've definitely done Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 41 1 that on the dtv.gov website. On that portion of 2 the website specifically, where organizations have 3 come to us. And I'm not sure that we've done - 4 how much we have done that with other parts of the 5 website, but I think that is a good idea and 6 something to look at, especially with our 7 constituents specific -- the different constituents 8 specific efforts we have. 9 And it may make sense and you all may want to 10 think about it, is updating the section of our 11 website that is devoted to the Consumer Advisory 12 committee to make sure we have links to the various 13 organizations that are represented on the 14 committee. 15 Ms. Berlyn: Exactly, but I'm thinking of even 16 a broader reach to organizations that go beyond the 17 typical consumer groups. Social Service Agencies 18 and organizations that reach out to consumer groups 19 that really need to know about the transition that 20 are those analog consumers that really need to 21 know. 22 Ms. Desai: That's a good suggestion. Thank 23 you. 24 Ms. Rooker: Karen? 25 Ms. Strauss: I'm Karen Strauss. Here's my Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 42 1 question. Jim, before, mentioned the need for 2 disability access impact statements, preferably on 3 new technologies coming out. And Commissioner 4 Adelstein indicated, that may be beyond the 5 jurisdiction of the FCC. But one other possibility 6 and I wonder if you've given thought to this, is a 7 disability impact -- disability access impact 8 analysis of new rules coming out of the FCC. 9 Because very often, rules come out that don't 10 directly have obviously, an impact on disability 11 access such as the one's that are obvious, the 12 relay services, and captioning, et cetera. 13 But there are lots of other proceedings that 14 might have an impact, but we don't find out about 15 them necessarily, because they're not on our radar 16 screen. And I wondered whether you've considered 17 or would consider any mechanism for the Disability 18 Rights office to consider to review the proceedings 19 on a regular basis that are being developed at the 20 Commission to determine whether or not they have a 21 disability impact and to capture what needs to be 22 done before they're released? 23 Ms. Desai: That's a very good point. We 24 actually do at the Commission, have what I thought 25 had been a pretty coordination system, but to the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 43 1 extent things are slipping through the cracks, 2 please flag them to me. Basically, usually when a 3 rule making proceeding is being discussed when 4 we're especially in the kind of embryonic stages, 5 that information is coordinated throughout the 6 Commission and very specifically, through the 7 Disability Rights office, just a flag in case 8 they're disability related issues that we not be 9 thinking about and we usually do get a chance to at 10 least have some input in that process. 11 But to the extent that you feel like things 12 have come out where you would've liked to have had 13 a little more notice, let me know because there may 14 be certain categories of things that we're not 15 thinking about and we also have a coordination 16 process through our legal advisors as well through 17 our Bureau level, legal advisors, that when they 18 meet with each other and talk about issues that are 19 coming up. 20 Ms. Rooker: Well Monica, we do thank you so 21 much for your time and your report. And again, for 22 the affirmation of what we're doing here as a 23 group. It is nice to know we're making a 24 difference and you always help us do that. So, 25 thank you. Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 44 1 [Applause] 2 Ms. Rooker: We're going to take a 10 minute 3 break and I mean 10 minutes, 10:05, back in your 4 seats, all right? And then, we will continue with 5 the order of business. Thank you. 6 [Recess at 9:55 a.m.] 7 Ms. Rooker: I have some things I need to do 8 before we can proceed. First off, there are a lot 9 of people that make this meeting possible and 10 unfortunately Betty Lewis, who is normally working 11 here working on everything, is out today because I 12 believe, she has a child with pneumonia. So we 13 send her our best. But I would like to thank Lois 14 Neeley, Rebecca Corinna , Kelly Jones, the AV 15 staff, the FCC Webmaster, all of those folks who 16 help make all of this possible. And of course you 17 know, that we have to thank Scott 18 [Applause] 19 Ms. Rooker: - for this wonderful food. I 20 hope you had a muffin. Tom Lokowski, we thank you 21 very much for making breakfast and lunch possible. 22 And as I mentioned Steve Jacobs earlier, he and 23 Larry Goldberg are suppose to be on the video 24 conferencing. Is it working? Okay, it's working. 25 Steve, can you talk to us? Well anyway, while Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 45 1 she's doing whatever she needs to do, I also want 2 to tell you that I think the leaders of the Working 3 Groups have been doing an extraordinary job, as has 4 the whole committee. You all have been a very 5 productive group. That is tremendous. 6 We have some new people and I would like to 7 recognize them, Tony Acton is replacing Mike Del, 8 as you know. The National Association of 9 Broadcasters has a sub today. She is not here 10 right at the moment. Marsha MacBride has a sick 11 child. Dane Snowden is going to be the new ACTA 12 Representative, but he's not here today. And Lori 13 McGarry is a substitute. In addition, TCS is Myrna 14 Orlick-Aiello is replacing Dana Marlow. 15 Mr. Jacobs: I wanted to thank all of the 16 technical folks we've been working with at the FCC 17 on the online conferencing collaboration work. 18 We're just conducting a quick experiment to see how 19 it works. So my thanks to Scott Marshall and 20 everybody else. And I will standby. 21 Ms. Rooker: Thank you, Steve. We really 22 appreciate it. Then Jim Conrad, I would like to 23 thank for the effort he took in putting together 24 the visit to the Call Center yesterday. I spoke to 25 the folks there. They enjoyed it very much. So Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 46 1 that was delightful. 2 There's a sign in list passing around the room 3 and I would like to ask you please, please, please 4 to put your name on it. And if you don't sign in, 5 Scott won't know you're here and well, you'll get 6 black marks. Let me tell you, we're going to 7 forego introducing ourselves. We just don't have 8 time to do that today. I'm so sorry. But instead, 9 I will trade that off with having the two 10 Commissioners speak to us and so, I think it is a 11 good trade off. 12 What we have done in the agenda, we've added 13 time to the discussing of the recommendations. 14 After our November meeting, many of you felt that 15 it was too jammed packed and that we did not have 16 enough time to discuss recommendations of the 17 Working Groups and there is no programming for 18 today's meeting. This is all driven by input and 19 output from the Working Groups. So that just goes 20 to show you, how busy we really have been. 21 Does anybody have any -- oh, let me tell you a 22 few more things. The July 21st -- the next 23 meeting, if you have recommendations for meeting 24 for agenda items, they need to be to Scott by 1 25 June. The idea -- not the text. And November the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 47 1 3rd will be our last meeting of this group as 2 constituted. So I believe that takes care of my 3 housekeeping. Have I forgotten anything? Okay. 4 So we're going to move right along to the 5 recommendations of the TRS Working Group, Dixie 6 Ziegler who's been the Working Group Chair. 7 Yes, Deborah? 8 Ms. Berlyn: I don't know if this is the 9 appropriate time to mention the lunch meetings. 10 Ms. Rooker: Go ahead. 11 Mr. Marshall: Yeah, a couple of the Working 12 Groups are meeting separately over lunch and I 13 wanted to give you the rooms for those two groups. 14 And the rooms would be: for the Consumer Affairs 15 Group, it is here in room B, right down the hall 16 here, to my right, room 40248. It's a straight 17 shot right out of this room. And for the TRS 18 Group, you just go out of this room, to the right, 19 up the stairs, around the corner to room 488 which 20 will be on your right. And we should have lunch 21 here, around 11:30 or so, and you would have until 22 probably 1:00 for your lunch period. 23 Ms. Berlyn: The Competition Working Group is 24 going to be meeting. 25 Mr. Marshall: I'm sorry. Thank you. It is Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 48 1 the Competition Working Group in 488, up the 2 stairs. 3 Ms. Berlyn: So it's the Competition Working 4 Group that is going meet in room 488? 5 Mr. Marshall: Right. Right up the stairs, to 6 your right. 7 Ms. Berlyn: And Jim Conrad and I -- Jim 8 Chairs the Consumer Outreach Working Group and we 9 have overlapping members. So, we're going to try 10 - and our Working Group would like to meet for 45 11 minutes and his group is going to meet for about 30 12 minutes. So that we will give an opportunity for 13 our members to attend both. 14 And Jim, do you want to -- do you mind if we 15 start at 11:30? Is that when we're breaking? 16 Mr. Marshall: Approximately 11:30. 17 Ms. Berlyn: So Jim, should we just do it in 18 one room and that way, we would avoid that mess? 19 So why don't we just meet? We'll meet in this 20 room, the first room you mentioned. 21 Mr. Marshall: Right. Hearing room B, right 22 down the hall here. 23 Ms. Berlyn: We will just meet in hearing room 24 B for everybody at 11:30 and we'll do it that way. 25 I think that works better. So the Competition Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 49 1 Group will start and then, we'll move into the 2 Consumer Group about 45 minutes later. 3 Unidentified Speaker: The TRS Group would 4 actually like to meet for lunch, if we could just 5 meet in here at lunch time. 6 Mr. Marshall: Or you could take the other 7 room if you'd like. 8 Unidentified Speaker: Is there now an extra 9 room? 10 Mr. Marshall: There is now an extra room, 11 488, above the stairs. Do need an assistive 12 listening device in either one of these rooms? 13 Unidentified Speaker: Yes. 14 Mr. Marshall: In 488, okay. Jeff, if you 15 could help make that happen, that would be great. 16 For 488, the assisted listening device. And we're 17 all set then. All right, thanks Karen. 18 Ms. Rooker: Thank you very much. 19 Mr. Marshall: So my mistake wasn't really a 20 mistake then. 21 Ms. Rooker: Okay. Let us proceed. Now, 22 since we're not going to be able to see the text 23 that the Working Group had prepared, Dixie, I 24 think, has passed out a copy. Is that correct, 25 Dixie? Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 50 1 Ms. Ziegler: That is correct. 2 Ms. Rooker: So you have a copy of the screens 3 that you would normally have been seeing. Do bear 4 with us, because we're trying to institute 5 something new and it will be good for us all in the 6 long run. Anyway, let me turn this over to Dixie 7 Ziegler who is the Chair of the TRS Working Group. 8 DIXIE ZIEGLER, WG CHAIR 9 RECOMMENDATION OF TRS WORKING GROUP 10 Ms. Ziegler: Our TRS Working Group has been 11 very busy and I appreciate your time at the meeting 12 in November, to bring you a recommendation and we 13 have several more recommendations for today. And 14 knowing my group, we'll probably have more at the 15 next meeting and we appreciate your taking the time 16 to look at our issues and hopefully, to move them 17 forward today. 18 The first recommendation that we would like to 19 bring forth this morning, is in regards to Speech20 to-Speech. Speech-to-Speech is a type of relay 21 service for those who have some type of a speech 22 disability. And what happens are, there are 23 specially trained communication assistants who are 24 trained in different types of speech disabilities 25 and they basically, re-voice for the speech Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 51 1 impaired person and make that conversation then, 2 happen. So would they re-voice for the speech 3 impaired person for the standard telephone user. 4 And then the speech impaired person with good 5 hearing, can then hear directly the hearing person 6 back on the call. So it is a particular type relay 7 service. 8 One of our members, Rebecca Ladieu and I don't 9 believe she is here today, is a Speech-to-Speech 10 user and brought this to our TRS Working Group. 11 The document that you all received, prior to the 12 meeting, is marked as a Petition for Rule Making. 13 They have since found out that this committee 14 cannot advance Petition for Rule Makings to the 15 FCC. We can provide comments and offer feedback to 16 a petition that is filed, but this group itself, 17 cannot file the petition. So what we'd like to do, 18 is get your approval today and submit what you have 19 in front of you as comments. We will see if there 20 is a member within the TRS Working Group, probably 21 Rebecca, who will actually file the Petition for 22 Rule Making as an individual and then what we will 23 do, is just basically change the heading on the 24 document that you all have. Change it to comments. 25 Then submit those comments in support of this Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 52 1 change. 2 What we're asking for is to increase the 3 amount of time a CA, a Speech-to-Speech 4 Communication Assistant, stays on a call for a 5 Speech-to-Speech call. Today, the requirement is 6 for 15 minutes. All of the types of TRS have a 7 requirement. This is a rule for relay providers to 8 follow in having communication assistants stay with 9 a call for a certain amount of time. The reason 10 we're asking for the change, is that it can take a 11 bit of time for a CA to learn an individual speech 12 pattern and the change can make it very difficult 13 for communication to happen efficiently. It can 14 also interrupt the Speech-to-Speech user's 15 concentration level. It might lead to frustration 16 as a new CA has to be retrained on the Speech-to17 Speech users voice. Changes do not happen that 18 frequently, but they can happen from time to time 19 and we're asking that that time be increased from 20 15 to 20 minutes. 21 At this point, I would be glad to take any 22 questions. We're asking for a motion from the 23 floor to advance the document that you've all had 24 in advance. And again, we'll make it as comments 25 and not a Petition for Rule Making. Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 53 1 Ms. Kelly: This is Brenda Kelly-Frey, 2 representing NASRA. I move. 3 Ms. Ziegler: Do I call for the second or 4 Shirley, do you want to? 5 Ms. Rooker: You can go ahead and do it. 6 Ms. Ziegler: Is there a second? 7 Mr. Tobias: I second. 8 Ms. Ziegler: Jim Tobias seconds. Is there 9 any discussion on the motion? 10 Ms. Rooker: Let's restate the motion just for 11 the record, please. 12 Ms. Ziegler: Brenda, would you like me to do 13 that? I believe that motion on the floor is to 14 accept the comments as written with the change and 15 making it be comments and not a Petition for Rule 16 Making and they would be filed after the petition 17 is filed. 18 Ms. Rooker: Okay. We've not discussed the 19 recommendations and we're trying to take a vote. 20 I'm not sure we can do that. 21 Ms. Ziegler: Well I guess, discussion now, 22 then? 23 Ms. Rooker: Normally, you would have 24 discussion before you ask for a recommendation for 25 moving to accept something. So we need to go Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 54 1 backwards, all right? 2 I suggest, we just table what we have just 3 said and go forward with the discussion. 4 Ms. Bobek: Ann Bobek from NAB. Just having 5 not -- the benefit of not having expertise in this. 6 I did -- there were two errors. Line two, you 7 should spell out what CA means. This is in the 8 Petition for Rule Making. It's in the second line. 9 It says, Speech CA and just spell out that acronym. 10 The second thing is merely an extra period at 11 the end of line C. Line C, Roman Numeral I-C, 12 there's two periods. 13 Ms. Rooker: What about the content, Brenda? 14 Ms. Kelly-Frey: There's also number two on 15 the first sentence where it says, March 6th, the 16 FCC released a report. If you could just add the 17 two before the three zero's there. 18 Ms. Ziegler: Thank you. 19 Mr. Morris: John Morris with CDT. The 20 proposal seems certainly a good proposal to me, but 21 I would like to understand what the other argument 22 is. Would someone be arguing against this, perhaps 23 the facilitators themselves? Do they say that 15 24 minutes is too long, or 20 minutes is too long? In 25 other words, why is this at all an issue? Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 55 1 Ms. Ziegler: Good question, thank you for 2 asking it. As a provider, as my our company is, no 3 we do not see that this is a problem. The number 4 of Speech-to-Speech calls is the volume itself, is 5 rather low. I think that most providers would 6 agree that it's very doable. We don't anticipate 7 that there would be any disagreement from those 8 that are providing the service. A fair question. 9 Ms. Rooker: Linda? State your name. 10 Ms. West: Linda West. Dixie, my question is, 11 as I understand this right now, if a Caller 12 Assistant is working with a person, once that 15 13 minute time limit comes up, they get cut off and 14 they have to start with a new assistant? 15 Ms. Ziegler: No. That is not correct. The 16 rule today, the call does not get cut off and it is 17 not a forced change. And so for example, if the 18 Communication Assistant is available to continue 19 with a call, they will. And that is what I meant 20 when I said initially, that the change in CA's does 21 not happen very frequently. Typically, a CA stays 22 with a call from beginning to end. However, let's 23 say it's the end of a shift, or a break, or 24 something like that for a Communication Assistant, 25 it is possible that a change in CA's would be Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 56 1 needed. And before a change can be made, the rule 2 today says that you must stay with that call for 15 3 minutes before a CA can change. We're asking that 4 that increases to 20 minutes, rather than 15. 5 Ms. West: My question would be, why would 6 they even put a minimum limit on it? It seems to 7 me a CA should just stay with a call. 8 Ms. Ziegler: That is the normal practice. I 9 think these rules were put in place to protect 10 relay providers or relay users, to ensure that they 11 have as much efficiency and continuity in their 12 call as possible. 13 Ms. West: Thank you. 14 Ms. Buck: Deborah Buck. I see that the clock 15 starts ticking on the minimum of 20 minutes, when 16 effective communication has been achieved and there 17 is an attempt to clarify what effective 18 communication is, that between the parties the 19 information is accurately and impartially 20 interpreted, who ascertains whether it's accurately 21 being presented? Is it the CA or the person making 22 the call? Because I could see some challenges 23 there. 24 Ms. Ziegler: There is not clarity on this 25 particular topic within the FCC rules. And one of Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 57 1 the things I think you're going to see our group 2 come back with, is a recommendation to make this 3 area clear. That we took the opportunity and these 4 comments that will relay some groundwork for the 5 issue. To answer your question, both the 6 Communication assistant and the user are able to 7 say, this isn't working. And if it's not working, 8 a change can take place. 9 Ms. Rooker: Okay. Now we've had some 10 discussion. Do we have any other comments? Karen? 11 And say your name, please. Don't forget folks, say 12 your name. Otherwise, the record doesn't know who 13 you are. 14 Ms. Strauss: Karen Strauss. Just to 15 supplement what Dixie just said, effective 16 communication also has some history in the 17 Americans with Disabilities Act and generally, if 18 the individual cannot communicate, there's not 19 going to be effective communication. So even if 20 the CA thinks there's effective communication, if 21 the individual does not feel that there is, they're 22 going to prevail. 23 And in answer to -- I think it was Lois's 24 question, the reason for the original rule and 25 there's also a rule for text base -- TOS, that's Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 58 1 actually 10 minutes. The reason that there's no 2 requirement for CA's to stay on the full amount of 3 time, is if there were some Union and Labor issues 4 for individuals that needed to leave at a certain 5 time. For example, because if you're ready to 6 leave for the day, but you're still on and you 7 happen to get a call, or you're ready to take a 8 break, or you have a certain shift, there are some 9 Labor protections in how long you would have to 10 stay on. I mean, somebody could talk for two hours 11 and you would have to leave and so, that was the 12 origination of some limits. The 15 minutes was 13 extended. It's a little bit longer than 10 14 minutes. Again, because it was a speech disabled 15 population and this is, at this point, a non 16 controversial issue. 17 Ms. Rooker: I understand better. We did have 18 to have some discussion. 19 Ms. Strauss: Absolutely. I just wanted to 20 explain. 21 Ms. Ragsdale: One question, is there an 22 additional cost for the incremental five minutes 23 that someone would incur? And has there been any 24 demonstration that the five minutes is sufficient, 25 as deposed to coming so many years asking for Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 59 1 another five minute increment, or is the 20 minutes 2 a new industry standard? 3 Ms. Ziegler: This is Dixie. Those are good 4 questions. The way that relay service is paid is 5 on a per minute basis. So whether that whoever is 6 processing that five minutes, it is still billed at 7 the same rate. So there is no change in cost. 8 Your second question about is 20 minutes the 9 right number. That's a tough question to answer 10 and the reason that is, is because there's very 11 small volumes on this particular service and so to 12 have enough volume to indicate that 15 is right or 13 20 is right, is a little bit tough for us to do. 14 We do have the leaders and quite frankly I guess, 15 the inventor of this particular service involved on 16 the committee and he thinks that this is the right 17 number as well. So we do have some confidence that 18 at least the user community believes that is the 19 right place to be. 20 Ms. Rooker: Okay. Now we have a motion on 21 the floor to accept this recommendation as it has 22 been. Shall we go ahead and change that? And do 23 you want to add to this, as it's been modified, 24 because we changed it? 25 Ms. Kelly-Frey: This is Brenda Kelly-Frey Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 60 1 representing NASRA. I move that this document, 2 that the comments be accepted by the committee, by 3 the CAC, as modified. 4 Ms. Rooker: That's fine and we have a second 5 to that. We need a second. 6 Ms. Orlick-Aiello: I second. 7 Ms. Rooker: All for the motion? 8 [A chorus of Ayes]. 9 Ms. Rooker: Opposed? 10 [No response]. 11 Ms. Rooker: All right. So it has been passed 12 unanimously that we accept this recommendation. 13 Thank you very much and I believe we have some 14 other things to do. 15 Ms. Ziegler: Thank you. The next item that 16 we would like to bring forth to the committee, is 17 some recommendations to those that write orders and 18 rules for the FCC on language issues as far as, how 19 to ensure that you're including all users of sign 20 language and the different ways that sign language 21 can be used by the community. I've listed several 22 on the slide, that this was kind of a summary and 23 all of you have had, I hope, an opportunity to look 24 over the actual recommendation itself. 25 Judy Viera, on our Working Group, did a superb Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 61 1 job of putting this document together for us. So I 2 would probably turn over any questions to her on 3 this particular topic. But this is a very simple 4 request, certainly non controversial. It is simply 5 a way to make sure that we're including all of 6 those who might be making use of types of relay 7 services. 8 Are there questions or discussion for the 9 recommendation? 10 Ms. Rooker: The floor is open. Before we 11 take a vote -- okay, everybody has the documents in 12 front of them that they need to see, correct? 13 Okay. Then there is no discussion. We call for a 14 motion to accept the recommendation. 15 Ms. Strauss: So move. 16 Mr. Tobias: Second. 17 Ms. Rooker: The motion has been made and 18 seconded. All in favor say aye. 19 [A chorus of Ayes] 20 Ms. Rooker: Opposed? 21 [No response.] 22 Ms. Rooker: All right. It passes 23 unanimously. Thank you. Dixie, we're moving right 24 along here. 25 Ms. Ziegler: The next item that we would like Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 62 1 to bring forth are comments that have been drafted 2 by our Working Group in support of a petition that 3 was filed by 13 consumer organizations, asking for 4 a mandate of Caption Telephone Relay Service and 5 the approval of IP Captioned Relay Service to be 6 funded by the Interstate TRS Fund. That's a lot of 7 words there. I'll try to break it down. 8 First off, what is Captioned Telephone Relay 9 Service? It is a service for those primarily, who 10 have some hearing available, as well as the ability 11 to speak. That sums up, I guess, the majority of 12 those who use Captioned Telephone Relay Service, 13 but it does reach a broader group than that to some 14 degree. 15 Basically, it's an amplified telephone that 16 includes written word for word captions. So what's 17 happening behind the scenes, is that a 18 communication assistant is making use of Speech-to19 Text technology and is re-voicing everything that 20 is said by the standard telephone user. The 21 computer is trained to the communication 22 assistant's voice and that text then, appears for 23 the caption telephone user on a screen on their 24 telephone. So it's very similar to Captioned 25 Television in that sense. So the Captioned Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 63 1 Telephone user, if they have some hearing 2 available, they can hear the portions of the call 3 that they're able to hear. What they can't hear, 4 they're able to read the captions on the telephone 5 in a simultaneous manner. 6 What -- again, what we're asking the group, is 7 to allow us to submit these comments on behalf of 8 the Consumer Advisory Committee to the FCC, in 9 support of the petition that was filed by the User 10 Group. Captioned Telephone Service allows for - 11 it's a very natural conversation. The problem 12 today and the reason for the petition, is that it's 13 not a mandated service and not all states are 14 providing this service to date. 15 And in addition, some states and all states I 16 guess, where it is available, there are limits on 17 the number of people who can use the service. The 18 program is a very new program and as it got 19 started, there were limits each month on the number 20 of people who could participate and make use of 21 Captioned Telephone Relay Service. There certainly 22 has been evidence of individuals and states where 23 Captioned Telephone is not available, that those 24 individuals have been put at a disadvantage. 25 There's been a lot of comment on this petition from Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 64 1 users across the country from those who have the 2 service, who have received great benefit from it, 3 as well as from those who do not have access to the 4 service in their state, really wanting the service 5 and having a great need for this particular service 6 in their state. 7 I think at this point in time, I would be glad 8 to take questions and have discussion on this topic 9 to answer one of the questions as far as who might 10 be against this particular order. We'll just 11 anticipate that the group that pays for 12 telecommunications relay services are typically you 13 and I. We pay a surcharge either on our telephone 14 bill or through the charges that we pay for long 15 distance telephone services. And it would be those 16 programs that would be required to pay for these 17 particular -- for this particular program. 18 It's a very new service. The demand -- it is 19 a popular service. The states that have it and the 20 people that are using it are using it quite a bit. 21 There certainly could become funding concerns and 22 those who have opposed the petition up to this 23 point, have been Commissions, State Utility 24 Commissions, not every single one, but some have 25 stepped up and are concerned about the budgeting Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 65 1 constraint that this service may have in their 2 particular state. So that's the flip side of this 3 argument. 4 We do have several subject matter experts 5 here. Joe Gordon, who's been very active on this 6 particular issue is here and I'm sure, would be 7 willing to take questions, as well as Ron Bibler, 8 who has been very active on this particular issue. 9 Janice as well, and I'm sure that between the group 10 of us, we could offer up any expertise we might 11 have. 12 Ms. Rooker: As a member of the committee and 13 not as the Chair, I'm interested in you telling me 14 how it works. Who does the captioning? Is someone 15 sitting in and listening to the conversation? I 16 mean, I haven't used it, so I need to understand 17 what we're talking about. 18 Ms. Ziegler: Yes. Similar to 19 Telecommunications Relay Service, where a 20 communication assistant is involved in the call. 21 And involved, is maybe not the right word, but what 22 we like to say, is they are the conduit for the 23 communication to take place. Everything the 24 hearing person says is typed to the deaf or hard of 25 hearing person. Everything the deaf or hard of Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 66 1 hearing person types gets -- is re-voiced by the 2 communication assistant back to the hearing person. 3 What Caption Telephone does, instead of the 4 communication assistant typing that communication, 5 they make use of Speech-to-Text technology and they 6 re-voice everything that the hearing person says. 7 So it displays on a computer, which is then 8 transmitted to the CAPTEL phone for the text to be 9 viewed on the phone itself. 10 And so, the CAPTEL device looks very much like 11 a standard telephone, has a key numbering pad, all 12 of that. But then also, has a display on it so the 13 captions can be read and then the person has, using 14 the Captioned Telephone, has good speech and what 15 they're saying is heard directly by the hearing 16 person that they're having the conversation with. 17 Ms. Rooker: So it's through a system and 18 these systems are typically run by the state, by 19 private individuals? 20 Ms. Ziegler: Private and another good 21 question you're asking today. There's a sole 22 provider of this service of Caption Telephone Relay 23 Service and the name of the company is Caption 24 Telephone, Inc. They're based in Wisconsin and 25 associated with Ultratech, for those of you who Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 67 1 might be familiar with that manufacturer of 2 different devices. They are the sole provider 3 today, of this particular service. 4 Ms. Rooker: What has been the cost impact on 5 the state? Since you brought up that issue, I 6 think that might be something of interest to us. 7 Do we know and do we know what kind of volume goes 8 over these calls? 9 Ms. Ziegler: I'm not sure if I have totals, 10 as far as the total amount of captioned telephone 11 phone minutes at this particular time. Obviously, 12 we could get that information. 13 The funding impact, there are 33 states that 14 have chosen to offer this service today. Those 15 particular states have found a way to provide the 16 service. But I think that there will be some of 17 those states that will have funding concerns if 18 mandated and anybody can get the service any time. 19 One of the things that has helped the states be 20 able to implement this program, is that there have 21 been caps on how much, how many units, how much 22 service can be implemented in each month and each 23 state has a different cap to date. So that has 24 provided some funding relief to the states, because 25 they know X amount of people are going to join the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 68 1 program. 2 I think the average -- it takes awhile to get 3 to this level, but I think the average user is 4 using the service about 150 to 180 minutes per 5 month. Now that takes awhile to get to that level. 6 I think that is over a three to six month period of 7 using this service, doesn't grow to that level. 8 And so having pretty trackable numbers and easy to 9 budget states have been able to do that and make 10 use of that information. 11 Again, I imagine that there were these 12 concerns from states, if mandated and that now 13 anybody can use the service anytime and this is 14 certainly a different market than those being 15 served by TRS today. Although, there are some 16 people who have migrated from traditional relay 17 service over to CAPTEL, but there will be new users 18 of CAPTEL service, who are not using TRS today. 19 Ms. Rooker: I would like to hear, because I 20 don't know anything about it and I'm just curious. 21 I don't mean to take up too much time. 22 Ms. Ziegler: No. You're asking great 23 questions. 24 Ms. Schacter: Janice Schacter. The practical 25 aspects of a CAPTEL service is, somebody who is Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 69 1 using a phone and slowly loses their hearing, 2 they're not suddenly going to learn sign language 3 and be able to use a relay service. So now, 4 imagine you're an older adult, you lose your 5 hearing and you want to talk to your grandchildren. 6 You can't, because you have no way of knowing what 7 they're saying if you can't hear or you might be 8 missing parts of a conversation. You might not 9 have lost all your hearing, so you might get every 10 other word, so the sentence doesn't make sense. 11 With CAPTEL -- well, I should say captioned 12 telephone allows you to fill in that missing part, 13 so if you missed that key part of the sentence, you 14 can figure out what they are saying. So you might 15 be using this to fill in some of the words. You 16 might be using it to fill in all of the words. But 17 you're a person who doesn't know sign language and 18 has basically, no other alternative. 19 I live in a state -- New York State, that has 20 no captioned telephone. So for example, my 21 daughter -- if she needs homework and she calls a 22 friend to ask about a math question, if you miss - 23 and sometimes you can figure out the context of a 24 sentence, but if you miss the plus or the minus in 25 that sentence, you've missed the whole problem. So Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 70 1 if she calls a friend and sometimes she had trouble 2 hearing on the phone, she can't always get her 3 homework because she can't hear. So I have to 4 participate in that phone call. 5 Now all right, maybe if you're young, that's 6 not a big deal. Now, imagine being asked on a 7 date, would you want your parents on the phone as 8 your being asked for a date? I mean, it sounds 9 crazy, but that is what kids have had to do, who 10 have had missing residual hearing and have no other 11 alternative and there's no choice. This is an 12 unbelievable thing. But the funding issue is not. 13 It shouldn't be a concern because no one is raising 14 funding if you sign. This should be no different. 15 It's just an alternative and why are not suddenly 16 - not that I'm looking to take money away from 17 relay services at all, but it should be functional 18 equivalent and that is what we keep needing to 19 remember on everything we look at for people with 20 disabilities is functional equivalent and stop 21 looking at, why the money? Because otherwise, 22 we're not looking for charity, we're looking for 23 equality. 24 Ms. Rooker: Why would you not be able to use 25 a relay service? Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 71 1 Ms. Schacter: You can't sign, my daughter 2 doesn't sign. 3 Ms. Rooker: You don't have to sign to use a 4 relay service. That's why I was asking you. You 5 don't sign for a relay service, right? I mean, I'm 6 sorry. 7 Ms. Strauss: This is Karen Strauss. First of 8 all, as Janice has pointed out, many people using 9 CAPTEL are either senior citizens or children relay 10 services, you have to be able to either type or 11 sign. These people cannot do either. 12 The other thing is, that many people using 13 Caption Telephone are people that have used the 14 telephone their whole lives, especially if they're 15 senior citizens. They're not accustomed to typing. 16 They're accustomed to talking on the telephone. 17 This is the most natural means of continuing the 18 ability to talk the way they're use to. 19 The other thing is, as Janice just pointed 20 out, the Americans with Disabilities Act requires 21 that relay services be provided. There is no 22 exemption for cost. There's nothing in the ADA 23 that says you provide it, unless it's going to cost 24 a certain amount of money. You just provide it. 25 That's it. No if's, and's, and but's. It has to Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 72 1 be functionally equivalent. 2 The incredible thing about captioned telephone 3 is, that it is the most functionally equivalent 4 service for this population of users as exist. 5 Because as I've said, number one, you don't have to 6 type, use your own voice. But number two, more 7 importantly, it's the only relay service other than 8 VRS. That is in real time. When you make a 9 captioned telephone call -- well actually, let me 10 start off with relay -- text relay. When you make 11 a text relay call or a VRS call, you have to call 12 the center -- the relay center. That center, you 13 establish contact with a communication assistant. 14 That CA then, calls out with captioned telephone. 15 It's transparent. You make your call directly to 16 the other party and you're connected right away. 17 The beauty of this is that again, you're 18 having a phone call that is very similar to the way 19 you're accustomed to having telephone calls. It 20 also saves time and because it is conducted in real 21 time, remember the CA is re-voicing a Speech-to22 Text program, is converting that speech nearly 23 simultaneously into text. 24 That too, is saving time because if any of you 25 have ever been on a text relay call, well that's Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 73 1 true of VRS, Video Relay. But if any of you have 2 been on a text relay call, they are interminable. 3 You type to the CA. The CA then, has to speak what 4 you type, and they have to type back what the voice 5 person has said. And by the time -- as a hearing 6 person, and by the time it is your turn again, 7 you're ready to hang up. And in fact, this has 8 been a significant problem in text based relay. 9 This doesn't happen with this kind of relay. It is 10 direct, so that also saves money because it is real 11 time. 12 A few more things. The other thing in terms 13 of cost, is that there's two proposals I want to 14 make clear. There are two proposals on the table. 15 One of them is to ask that the FCC mandate 16 captioned telephone. The second one however, did 17 you already raise this one? 18 Ms. Ziegler: We have not talked about it yet. 19 Ms. Strauss: The second one deals with IP 20 relay. I'll let Dixie introduce that one, but if 21 it goes to IP Captioned Telephone, then the states 22 are not obligated to pay. Basically, it then 23 becomes a long distance service and that is 24 probably where captioned telephone is going to go. 25 So the objections that are now being raised in this Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 74 1 initial proceeding by the states, are probably 2 going to go away when it becomes an Interstate 3 service. But I will let Dixie talk about that a 4 little bit more. 5 Ms. Rooker: We have a number of people who 6 want to make comments. Joe, you had your hand up. 7 Stick your hand up. 8 Mr. Gordon: Joe Gordon. I don't think it was 9 mentioned, but already 33 states have it. I'm 10 sorry, Dixie did mention that. One of the states 11 that doesn't have it is my own state. New York 12 State. I was up in Albany three - four months ago 13 visiting with the Public Service Commission. I met 14 with two Commissioners. They were sort of -- not 15 against it, but didn't understand that well. After 16 we met with them, we sent them many letters. We 17 received communication back from the Public Service 18 Commission saying, we hear you. We're looking at 19 it. It is interesting. It looks good. It looks 20 possible. So it's important that the 17 states 21 that don't have it, in addition to the FCC having 22 this petition, that we also advocate in our own 23 states. 24 As Karen said, I'm use to a telephone. It's a 25 regular desk phone. You could turn the captions Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 75 1 off if you want to, if you're having a personal 2 phone call. 3 Ms. Rooker: So this system would work by 4 going through third person who seamlessly takes 5 what the person is responding to your conversation 6 and puts it into text? 7 Mr. Gordon: Correct. Voice recognition. 8 Ms. Rooker: All right now, wait a minute. We 9 had a hand over here first, John? 10 Unidentified Speaker: The service -- and this 11 is just my ignorance, but all of the relay 12 services, am I right in understanding that the 13 service doesn't require the telephone company to 14 actually do something, it is all a third party 15 provider that is providing that, is that correct? 16 Ms. Ziegler: It is a third party that's 17 providing the service. The telephone is purchased 18 either through an equipment program. The customer 19 has to have the telephone to make the service work. 20 Mr. Polk: But Verizon, or SBC, or whatever 21 does not necessarily need to even be aware that 22 their phone lines are using this? 23 Ms. Ziegler: No. 24 Ms. Rooker: Joel has his hand up. 25 Mr. Snyder: Joel Snyder. I'm the Director of Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 76 1 Described Media which is a service for folks who 2 are blind and low vision on television or film, but 3 I am at the National Captioning Institute, so this 4 is a marvelously interesting conversation. And 5 thank you, Dixie. And I'm very supportive of the 6 concept behind it all. 7 A couple of questions though, what is the cost 8 of the unit itself? Obviously, this is more than a 9 simple telephone. Maybe it's a telephone with 10 obviously, some sort of small screen. That's my 11 first question. 12 Ms. Ziegler: It's similarly priced to a TTY, 13 so $400 -- $500 dollar range, and it depends on - 14 there are equipment programs that make that 15 equipment available. It varies from state to state 16 as to the type of equipment programs that might be 17 available. 18 Mr. Snyder: I would suspect if this is 19 mandated, the cost is going to come way down. 20 Ms. Ziegler: You would think that kind of a 21 mass production would make a difference. 22 Mr. Snyder: And what is the cost right now of 23 the provision of the service? Now you have the 24 sole provider. I don't know what that does to the 25 economics of it all and that is not being -- well I Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 77 1 don't know. In the 33 states, is it being covered? 2 Is it being subsidized by those states? 3 Ms. Ziegler: The 33 states that are providing 4 the service, have funded it through the 5 Telecommunications Relay Service programs and it's 6 similarly priced in TRS. It's been in some 7 instances, it's been a little bit higher than TRS. 8 Mr. Snyder: What is that? 9 Ms. Ziegler: There's different ways to 10 measure it. Anywhere from $1.40 to $1.60 per 11 conversation -- minutes. 12 Mr. Snyder: Okay. And also, I just want to 13 thank you for bringing this up. Certainly and 14 Karen, for the clarification with a respect to the 15 typing. I think I just fully support the notion of 16 functional equivalence, because I think that 17 distinction is key here, that someone has the right 18 to be able to use the telephone in as closely 19 equivalent a manner as anybody else. Not have to 20 type through their conversation, or have to go 21 through something, somebody with a close as 22 equivalent as anybody else. 23 And I'm sorry, one other quick question. 24 They're using speech recognition, so I assume when 25 you say they're re-voicing, they're not -- they're Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 78 1 speaking it and a computer is recognizing the 2 speech. That is why it's being re-voiced and then 3 it becomes text? 4 Ms. Ziegler: That is correct. The CA -- the 5 computer is trained to the CA's voice and so 6 they're re-voicing and changing. 7 Mr. Snyder: So they're not using real time 8 captioner's. 9 Ms. Ziegler: That is correct. 10 Ms. Rooker: Now Joel has one point to make 11 then I promise, we'll move onto the rest of you. 12 Mr. Gordon: Joe Gordon. Joel asked a 13 question about the cost and it was said that it 14 might be a little bit higher on a permanent cost, 15 but I understand that even though it might be a 16 little bit higher at times on a permanent cost, the 17 number of minutes are less. 18 Ms. Ziegler: This is a good point that Joe is 19 bringing up and Karen touched on this too, in that 20 because the calls are more functional equivalent 21 and are faster for all of the parties involved, the 22 average call time on a CAPTEL call is about 2.4, 23 2.5 -- I'm going to use different terms now - 24 session minutes, is different ways in the industry 25 we measure calls. In TRS, the average call length Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 79 1 is about four -- 4.2 session minutes per call. 2 So on a per call basis, because of the 3 technology is quite a bit faster and functionally 4 equivalent, as Janice and Karen have explained. It 5 is more cost efficient. 6 Ms. Rooker: Okay. We're going to go down 7 here, then over here, then over here. So we'll 8 start with you. You got it. 9 Mr. Bibler: I'm Ron Bibler and I'm actually 10 on the Committee the Expertise in Captioned 11 Telephone and everyday, I use the CAPTEL. I use it 12 to receive phone calls and to make phone calls. 13 It's the most natural form of telephone for me 14 because I don't use the TTY and I don't sign. I 15 don't have -- my speech is clearer and so I used 16 captioned telephone and captioned TV all the time. 17 And the problem is, is that the 17 states that 18 don't have CAPTEL, they're going to drag their feet 19 and they will drag their feet as long as they can. 20 And what we're trying to get the committee to do, 21 is to have the FCC put a mandate out so those 17 22 states will get the CAPTEL. 23 Now there will be a cost involved because 24 there's going to be a huge volume going out there. 25 There are 1,000's of people like me that don't have Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 80 1 TTY's. They're elderly people and so forth, who 2 don't have it and with this system out there, this 3 could open up the telephone and make it much more 4 functionally equivalent for them. They're going to 5 be using the telephone at a $1.40 a minute and the 6 volume is going to increase. 7 Now these 17 states, to give you an example, I 8 use my CAPTEL. Okay and everyone that has a cell 9 phone that works in all 50 states and you can 10 imagine taking your cell phone to a state that does 11 not allow cell phones, you have an alternative. 12 You can go to a payphone. That's the same analogy, 13 33 states have CAPTEL and 17 do not and the FCC 14 should mandate it. It's not a difficult thing to 15 do, but these states are not going to move forward 16 unless they're forced to do so. 17 Ms. Rooker: Thank you. John, put your hand 18 up there. 19 Mr. Breyault: John Breyault with the 20 Telecommunications Research and Action Center. I 21 support this motion here, but I did have a 22 question. If you could educate me, I understand 23 the TOS System if funded by line item fees on 24 consumers bills, whether they use the system or 25 not. In states that have gone to the new system, Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 81 1 have those fees increased and how much? 2 Ms. Ziegler: I don't know the answer to that 3 John, because there's a variety of factors that can 4 change those fees. It is not just the CAPTEL 5 service that is funded within that program. Some 6 states use fund equipment programs, some states 7 fund a variety of programs out of that particular 8 surcharge. And so, I don't know if any state has 9 had to raise their surcharge. Karen, do you know? 10 Ms. Strauss: I don't think -- as far as I 11 know, I don't think that has happened and one of 12 the reasons it has not happened is because 13 generally, text based relay is on the decline and 14 that is what those funds generally paid for. 15 Internet based relay, both text and video, are on 16 the upswing. That is where the bulk of the cost of 17 relay are right now. So generally, that has not 18 happened. 19 Just so you know what the surcharges usually 20 are, they average from three to five cents, to 25 21 cents at the most. We're not talking about 22 anything in order of like the subscriber line 23 charge, where it's over $3 dollars and so they're 24 very minimal charges. 25 Ms. Rooker: We have some people down here. Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 82 1 Ms. Buck: Deborah Buck. I first and foremost 2 want to say, our organization supports this 3 servicing concept. It is valuable. It does 4 provide a fundamental right to access to telephone 5 services. We have significant concerns about the 6 administrative and programmatic aspects of a 7 program such as this. 8 I did share with the committee, with some of 9 the members on that committee, a litany of issues 10 that have been brought to our attention about this 11 service. And I feel that the FCC needs to take due 12 diligence in looking at some of the ramifications 13 of this. I think what is going to happen, it is 14 going to backfire. Not to be a naysayer, but there 15 is one consumer who had a phone cost of $75,000 16 dollars in one year. So there are issues that are 17 underlined how this is administered, difficulty in 18 getting information from the service provider. I 19 think we are putting states in a difficult position 20 in terms of running this forward. 21 I generally support the service in concept for 22 individuals, but we need to make sure it provides a 23 quality service. Cost is not the only issue. I 24 agree with you. I'd be the first to say cost 25 should not be the barrier to someone getting Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 83 1 access. There are inherently other programmatic 2 and administrative technological issues with this 3 quality of the services. You are hooked to one 4 relay service. Many states have limitations that 5 they need to use a relay service. In their state, 6 they're going to have to change that to use this 7 one entity to do these services. The actual device 8 is tied to a serial code. The service, the cost 9 are incurred based upon the serial code of that 10 device. 11 There have been instances of people selling 12 devices over eBay and someone in another state, 13 because of the code of the device having the 14 originating state that provided it paying for those 15 phone services. Gather is a level of equity, I 16 agree it is something that should be across the 17 board in every state in the nation. 18 But I feel that the Commission has a 19 responsibility, as does this Work Group, to 20 recommend that they take due diligence and not only 21 due diligence in looking at this program because it 22 is new, but looking at what kind of monitoring and 23 oversight needs to occur. This committee has put 24 forth some other recommendations today, looking at 25 other TRS services, highlighting the need for Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 84 1 monitoring an oversight. We need to be consistent 2 and apply the same standards across the board, so 3 that everyone has quality and equitable access. 4 Ms. Rooker: You put that beautifully, 5 Deborah. Thank you very much so. We're going to 6 have to figure out how to address that when we get 7 around to recommendations. 8 Jim? 9 Mr. Tobias: Jim Tobias, Inclusive 10 Technologies. I'm going to use this as an 11 opportunity to restate what I said before about 12 being able to plan and having enough information in 13 advance. This is a classic example of being rolled 14 over by a technology that came essentially 15 unexpectedly and developed very strong, and 16 accurate, and fully, to be supported by myself and 17 this committee, Consumer Interest. I mean, I think 18 it's the height of idiocy that some many people 19 want to use this service, we've got to limit it. 20 When somebody -- you know, that is what we in 21 business call a good problem --- when so many 22 people want to use your service, you should respond 23 to them as positively and informatively as 24 possible. And certainly, cost should never be a 25 limiting factor here. Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 85 1 However, not having certain amounts of 2 information which really should have been gathered 3 now for many, many years about relay users. Who 4 are the relay users? What are their preferences? 5 What are the current patterns of operation? And 6 especially, as we have seen a decline in text base 7 relay and we know anecdotally an adoption of 8 mainstream technologies to replace or to supplement 9 the use of relay. We don't understand where these 10 users are at of the advance kind of early adopting 11 users and the large bulk of users as well. And 12 there is no reason for us not to have that kind of 13 information and to be able to use it to plan in a 14 policy setting where all stakeholders are 15 available. 16 Just to perseverate a little longer, I think 17 some of the features that were mentioned as unique 18 to CAPTEL, are in fact evidently assimilable by 19 automatic relay and that is the automatic routing. 20 Because see, when you place outbound call or an 21 inbound call, there's no reason why -- and Brittan 22 has this service -- there's no reason why, you 23 can't at the user's choice, have calls 24 automatically routed through relay. So the placing 25 of the call or the receiving of the call is more Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 86 1 natural and more actually, equivalent. So there 2 are those capabilities. 3 I'm more concerned about the sole provider 4 issue and the claims of proprietary information. I 5 think we all should be concerned about that because 6 I agree with Deborah, we're risking a backlash. 7 We're risking the opportunistic Commissioner or 8 public official who says, what is this? Why are 9 we paying a $1.40 for someone to listen to a phone 10 call and talk into a microphone, et cetera, et 11 cetera? 12 There are mainstream transcription services 13 there. Dozens of them available now, not only over 14 IP, but over a plain old telephone service where 15 you can get transcripts of conference calls. I 16 don't know what the per minute charge is on those 17 services are. I doubt that they're a $1.40 a 18 minute. Because I think they would be pricing 19 themselves out of the market. 20 As we migrate into -- and one more little 21 minor explosion as we migrate and our users, -- the 22 users of relay service and CAPTEL, migrate and see 23 these other options for mainstream technologies, we 24 owe the public policy arena, as well as those users 25 and the other stakeholders, the broadest and wisest Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 87 1 vision of how to extend the service and yet, reduce 2 the cost. And I don't see that in the current 3 setting. Mostly, because we happen to be towing 4 around the proprietary nature of the service and 5 the equipment. 6 Ms. Rooker: I think you and Deborah have 7 raised some very interesting questions. It's going 8 to be very challenging for us to put in the form of 9 a recommendation. We have a lot of work to do and 10 we're probably going to have stop taking comments 11 and start working, unless there are some other - 12 totally other perspectives on these comments and we 13 really need to move forward in adopting a 14 recommendation. But I think we'll satisfy the 15 questions as well as the good intent of this 16 recommendation. 17 One more comment, that's it. Janice? 18 Ms. Schacter: Janice Schacter. While I agree 19 that fraud should never be tolerated, the way to 20 deal with fraud is by prosecuting it as fraud and I 21 think that is not basically a reason you cannot do 22 something because of the potential of fraud. Also, 23 I think fraud will be reduced and all of the states 24 have it and what you just described is somebody 25 taking it out from one state to another state to Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 88 1 try to deal with something. But the fraud is not a 2 reason that you shouldn't. And every year that we 3 don't have this, is another year that people are 4 kept in the dark and are basically segregated from 5 society. 6 Ms. Rooker: Janice, I'm sorry. I don't mean 7 to be rude. I understand, you're talking about 8 social issues. It is a social issue, but I'm 9 trying to get this to move forward. 10 Ms. Schacter: I know, but she raised social 11 issues and raised some very specific questions. 12 When you have everybody and you have somebody - 13 Ron Bibler sitting here, saying he's using it and 14 it is picking up. You have to understand what it 15 is like to not have any appropriate access or 16 appropriate choice and you're limited. It's very 17 easy to sit there. And let's explore, we can 18 explore for the rest of our life. But right now, 19 we can make a decision to do this and we can always 20 come back and say, you know what and expand as more 21 companies. But if we don't start an opportunity, 22 we're not giving people an opportunity to have 23 conversations like you and I have on the phone. 24 Ms. Rooker: I don't believe -- we weren't 25 suggesting we not move forward with the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 89 1 recommendation, rather what we need to do in 2 forming a recommendation is to put in there some of 3 the concerns that have been addressed, which I 4 think are very valid. Let's discuss it. 5 I really am going to stop taking comments, 6 because we're not going to have time to fashion 7 this, if we don't. 8 Joy has a legal issue that we have to hear. 9 Ms. Ragsdale: Just one point, representing 10 NASUCA, I need more information about cost. But 11 what I'm more concerned along with that, we mandate 12 states do something if that would rise to the level 13 of federal preemption. That is not something our 14 organization has historically supported and I would 15 have strong reservations if we were asked to adopt 16 this resolution today. And I also agree with the 17 issues that Deborah Buck has already raised. 18 Ms. Strauss: The obligation would not be on 19 the states at all. The obligations are actually on 20 the common carriers, the ADA title IV places the 21 obligations to provide relay services on common 22 carriers. The states have taken it upon themselves 23 to provide relay services, as basically a favor for 24 the common carriers, but they are not -- they would 25 not be subject to these obligations. Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 90 1 Ms. Ragsdale: This is Joy from NASUCA, again. 2 The language says to mandate the states to have 3 this service used as drafted now. 4 Ms. Strauss: I will check that. If so, 5 we'll have to change it. 6 Ms. Ragsdale: It's not the -- I cannot 7 support that language. Perhaps strongly encourage, 8 but not mandate. 9 Ms. Rooker: I think I'm hearing a sense that 10 perhaps we need to go back and take into 11 consideration some of the issues that have been 12 raised before we move forward. And that is not to 13 say that this isn't very worthwhile, but I think 14 that there have been enough things brought up that 15 need to be considered in drafting something that 16 we're going to feel good about and that is going to 17 help accomplish our goals, which I think we all are 18 in agreement of the need for this kind of service. 19 I think what we are expressing are some concerns 20 that we're not addressing in the recommendations. 21 Is that a consensus of the group? I need to 22 get a feeling from you because I don't want this to 23 be my opinion. This has to be the group opinion. 24 Mr. Gordon: Joe Gordon. Why don't we test 25 your last statement by having a motion made and see Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 91 1 how the reaction to the motion is. May I make the 2 motion? 3 Ms. Rooker: Sure. 4 Mr. Gordon: I think everyone should take a 5 minute and just read these two pages if you haven't 6 done it. 7 Ms. Strauss: I don't see states written on 8 here. 9 Mr. Gordon: Especially on the first page, the 10 last paragraph, on the first page speaks to the 11 point of proprietary ownership, that has been done 12 before by government. So I make a motion that we 13 proceed and do as we request in this paper, to send 14 the comments from this committee to the FCC in 15 support of the captioning telephone mandates. 16 Ms. Rooker: I'm sorry. I don't quite 17 understand. Are you saying we recommend we submit 18 it as written? 19 Mr. Gordon: Correct. 20 Unidentified Speaker: Second. 21 Ms. Rooker: People are going to second that 22 motion, all right. 23 Joel? 24 Mr. Snyder: The sense I was getting from you 25 Shirley, and I would have to speak against the Alderson Reporting Company 1111 14th Street, NW Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 c8f21bc6-9155-440d-aaba-f151da0ef9e6 Meeting April 7, 2006 Washington, DC Page 92 1 motion as Joe has proposed it and seconded. The 2 sense I was getting from you Shirley, is that given 3 the discussion and the sense that I expressed 4 earlier, I asked some specific questions to get a 5 sense of some detail that spoke I think, directly 6 to the kinds of questions Deborah raised and were 7 raised by the gentleman that spoke after there -- I 8 don't have your name, I'm sorry -- that I think, 9 yet to the fact that we need some more information 10 about the practical implementation of the mandate. 11 I am absolutely in favor of the spirit of this 12 proposal. But I'm real concerned about how we put 13 forward this recommendation and we need more than 14 just what we have been able to discuss today, in 15 order to put forward a recommendation that has the 16 kind of credibility that the FCC will respect. 17 Ms. Rooker: One of the things and let me just 18 say this as a member of the committee, one of the 19 things that I'